Comments on: Elgar- let’s check the instant replay

By: Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Why I subscribe to the New York Times

Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:26:45 +0000

[...] To my delight, I was reminded of my own writing from two days ago (a passage which now bothers me as I had no right to try to guess or assume another musician’s motives)- …there are problems with the approach that far transcend the use of string vibrato, and point to this being an expression of a musical aesthetic that belongs not to Elgar, but to the conductor himself, who, like Stowkowski before him, seems to have decided he knows better than the author how the the work at hand should sound, that his sound concept is so important as to allow him to diverge from the text anywhere the text would force a divergence from his sound concept. [...]

By: Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Elgar thread….

Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Elgar thread…. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:07:52 +0000

[...] 2) A full analysis of the performance, complete with mp3s http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/08/elgar-lets-check-the-instant-replay/ [...]

By: Zoltan

Zoltan — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:49:38 +0000

Just to add two bits of info here (as someone who has been to performances of the orchestra under Norrington):
- In the Adagietto of Mahler’s 5th, there’s also a vibrando in the score, which Norrington did observe (it wasn’t very pronounced, just a slight vibrato from what I can remember)
- The fiddler solo in the second movement of Mahler’s 4th, played “normal” vibrato throughout.

Otherwise, great insight and understanding of string playing and observing the score Ken! I know that life is too short for such elaborate posts and I applaude you for writing one!

As someone who says “call off the performance, let’s rehearse Haydn”, next season Norrington will have Haydn’s London Symphonies in focus. Perhaps I will (finally?) get away from the (post-)romantics and “get” Haydn?

By: Robert Berger

Robert Berger — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:29:19 +0000

I’m a child of my time; I grew up accustomed to string vibrato. It just doesn’t
sound right to my ears without it. Although I’m a former horn player, vibrato is to
string playing what bubbles are to champagne. Norrington’s performances
are like flat champagne.
And I could never stand the sound of gut strings. The sound has usually been
dreadful ; a nasal, pinched wheeze.
The old brass instruments also have an unplaesantly raspy sound to me.
It’s fine for Norrington to experiment, but I can’t stand his arrogance in proclaiming that he’s found the one and only right way to do music; there is no such
thing.

By: David Preiser

David Preiser — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:47:14 +0000

Now we’re getting somewhere. You’ve provided some terrific evidence from the standpoint of actually having to physically make these sounds, which is key to this whole puzzle.

The string player’s technique on modern equipment is just not the same as on period instruments, and playing styles began to change when the equipment improved, not just when Pathé started recording music. Your point about staying on the string is particularly relevant to that idea. It’s one thing to clean up articulation and all that (which we all approve of), but Norrington’s approach just seems to be to add all these artificial effects to replace what the music and the instruments want to do naturally.

(NB: Thanks for the kind words and link)

By: Kenneth Woods

Kenneth Woods — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:50:20 +0000

A colleague just asked me if I thought the BBC shouldn’t have planned this concert- far from it. Let’s put the ideas and the concepts out there where we can hear them, discuss them, argue about them and learn from them. I certainly learned something from this project, even though I’ve conducted the piece before. R.N. doesn’t seem to mind fuss and hubub, and has been wiling to critque other conductors, so lets have the debate. That’s what the Proms are for.

By: Lisa Hirsch

Lisa Hirsch — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:29:34 +0000

Wow, thank you, Ken – this posting is incredibly informative, a great analysis of how string playing technique works in an orchestra.

I have not had a chance to listen to the playback yet – I note that my past experience with the conductor in question is…well…I found Wagner played on 19th century instruments absolutely gorgeous, with marvelous transparency, but his theories about tempo are bizarre, and, frankly, I think he is a mediocrity as an interpreter. He can execute his obsessions (play everything fast with little or no vibrato) and has little insight into the music.

By: ComposerBastard

ComposerBastard — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:39:30 +0000

OK, I haven’t had time to read all of this, perhaps later, but do we have a recording comparison w/ New Queens Hall Orchestra? And how much vibrato can they get away with gut strings? I would think the LESS vibrato on a gut, the more organic and grounded the sounds would be in the string sections.