Comments on: Why Americans don’t hear more Elgar http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/ Music, opinion, life as a performing musician Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:42:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Elgar in America, and especially Chicago http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-64517 Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Elgar in America, and especially Chicago Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:23:39 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-64517 [...] Not too long ago I wrote a piece on why American audiences don’t hear more Elgar, which you can read here. [...] [...] Not too long ago I wrote a piece on why American audiences don’t hear more Elgar, which you can read here. [...]

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By: Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Around the web http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-60227 Kenneth Woods- a view from the podium » Around the web Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:49:44 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-60227 [...] Not long ago, I discussed why more of his music isn’t done in America here. Maybe it is nice to revisit that post since his music is being done with a vengeance this week. [...] [...] Not long ago, I discussed why more of his music isn’t done in America here. Maybe it is nice to revisit that post since his music is being done with a vengeance this week. [...]

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By: Guy Aron http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-52140 Guy Aron Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:42:28 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-52140 Well, Kolja Blacher does a very good Elgar - I heard it in Melbourne - Sitkovetsky has recorded it too & Ehnes' performance at the last Proms was well received. Funnily the conductor in the performance I heard (Marcus Stenz) was German too, and it was very idiomatic and beautiful. Maybe the English aspect is being a bit overdone and we need to think of Elgar as a German English composer. (Of course that was where he had a lot of recognition early on, before it happened in England.) Not that he doesn't sound English - that painful tenderness and general emotionalism is very distinctive. But is he English English or German English? People of course like to pigeonhole (the English Mahler) but the more you hear of a composer' s works, the more differentiated a view of them one has. Of course if no-one does anything except a few things that are done to death it's hard to get much of an overview - which is where your post comes in. Orchestras need conductors like you with a real passion for a composer, who will nag them to programming that composer more widely & deeply. More power to your bowing arm! Well, Kolja Blacher does a very good Elgar – I heard it in Melbourne – Sitkovetsky has recorded it too & Ehnes’ performance at the last Proms was well received. Funnily the conductor in the performance I heard (Marcus Stenz) was German too, and it was very idiomatic and beautiful. Maybe the English aspect is being a bit overdone and we need to think of Elgar as a German English composer. (Of course that was where he had a lot of recognition early on, before it happened in England.) Not that he doesn’t sound English – that painful tenderness and general emotionalism is very distinctive. But is he English English or German English?

People of course like to pigeonhole (the English Mahler) but the more you hear of a composer’
s works, the more differentiated a view of them one has. Of course if no-one does anything except a few things that are done to death it’s hard to get much of an overview – which is where your post comes in. Orchestras need conductors like you with a real passion for a composer, who will nag them to programming that composer more widely & deeply. More power to your bowing arm!

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By: Reid http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-52139 Reid Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:24:45 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-52139 America has an oddly political culture; things that often shouldn't be political are. We [Americans] hear Mozart, Brahms, Tchaikovski, Beethoven, Strauss, Mahler, and, rightly or wrongly, don't associate them with a politic, or a culture. For [American] audiences, it's all about the tunes for a lot of the old, dead guys who's names they've heard before. As a philistine, it feels to me as if a handful of composers have been subsumed by their nationalities or politic, and their music's reputation has suffered for it. Elgar, here, is known as much for being English as a composer, and the most famous recordings of his work seem to be by British performers. It may rub American audiences the wrong way, and start out with that taste in our mouths. Perhaps his celebrity during life, at least in England, has a bit to do with America's distrust of Elgar. And, Elgar's a lot of work. The All-Elgar program was a bear. And let me show you the Walton Viola Concerto excerpts I copied out of the parts one day (for study purposes only--not something you see lying around somewhere). And, of course, an American orchestra is <i>never</i> going to sound like a British orchestra, not matter if they drink like a German orchestra, no? Or, maybe we're just lazy. America has an oddly political culture; things that often shouldn’t be political are. We [Americans] hear Mozart, Brahms, Tchaikovski, Beethoven, Strauss, Mahler, and, rightly or wrongly, don’t associate them with a politic, or a culture. For [American] audiences, it’s all about the tunes for a lot of the old, dead guys who’s names they’ve heard before.

As a philistine, it feels to me as if a handful of composers have been subsumed by their nationalities or politic, and their music’s reputation has suffered for it. Elgar, here, is known as much for being English as a composer, and the most famous recordings of his work seem to be by British performers. It may rub American audiences the wrong way, and start out with that taste in our mouths. Perhaps his celebrity during life, at least in England, has a bit to do with America’s distrust of Elgar.

And, Elgar’s a lot of work. The All-Elgar program was a bear. And let me show you the Walton Viola Concerto excerpts I copied out of the parts one day (for study purposes only–not something you see lying around somewhere). And, of course, an American orchestra is never going to sound like a British orchestra, not matter if they drink like a German orchestra, no?

Or, maybe we’re just lazy.

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By: ComposerBastard http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51738 ComposerBastard Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:52:48 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51738 The walton cello concerto is a fab piece, but I have a hard time finding a good recording. I heard it on BBC3 a couple of days ago and was really taken with it. I only have one movement of the thing on recording. I can understand Hanson issues - politically, that is. Piston I have no idea why. You would also think such a force as Sessions you would be hearing his Symphonys on the A orchestras but nada. Its a disgrace. How about an English Composers Series or Festival? Anything from that period is tops in my listening list. The walton cello concerto is a fab piece, but I have a hard time finding a good recording. I heard it on BBC3 a couple of days ago and was really taken with it. I only have one movement of the thing on recording.

I can understand Hanson issues – politically, that is. Piston I have no idea why. You would also think such a force as Sessions you would be hearing his Symphonys on the A orchestras but nada. Its a disgrace.

How about an English Composers Series or Festival? Anything from that period is tops in my listening list.

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By: David Preiser http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51701 David Preiser Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:07:06 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51701 All good points (especially about Kennedy, who has completely lost the plot, if his last Proms concert was any indication). I was also struck by your comparison to Strauss, which does make sense when one thinks about building those gestures. Sadly, you're also right in your cost-benefit analysis of doing these works. There is only so much room in a season for non-standard works, and the way things go these days the extra space will be taken up by a B-level concerto or two so orchestra principals can get their star turns, a new(ish) American work commission by the orchestra or an associated organization, the obligatory preciously-named piece by the composer in residence, or even a work by a local composer or orchestra member. Then for many groups there's film score night, pops night, kiddie night, etc. All that has to be considered before a conductor can even think about looking at Elgar 1. And then the preconceived notions you mention rear their ugly heads, followed by the technical and practical obstacles. Do programmers think the audience won't be interested because of that bad reputation? Fortunately you don't. But it's not surprising that a lot of this music will fail the cost-benefit analysis in many music director's minds. I'm not saying I agree with that perspective, of course, but it's probably pretty common. It would be great to see a wider variety of interesting works chipping away at the Three B's and the Three M's. Thankfully there are more and more conductors like yourself willing to lead a bit of cultural change rather than fall victim to it. After all, it's not like performing these pieces would be a risk. If it's done well, the audience will respond to good music. It's more about taking control over the experience rather than letting fashion dictate forever. As for Hindemith, "Mathis der Maler", please. All good points (especially about Kennedy, who has completely lost the plot, if his last Proms concert was any indication). I was also struck by your comparison to Strauss, which does make sense when one thinks about building those gestures.

Sadly, you’re also right in your cost-benefit analysis of doing these works. There is only so much room in a season for non-standard works, and the way things go these days the extra space will be taken up by a B-level concerto or two so orchestra principals can get their star turns, a new(ish) American work commission by the orchestra or an associated organization, the obligatory preciously-named piece by the composer in residence, or even a work by a local composer or orchestra member. Then for many groups there’s film score night, pops night, kiddie night, etc. All that has to be considered before a conductor can even think about looking at Elgar 1. And then the preconceived notions you mention rear their ugly heads, followed by the technical and practical obstacles. Do programmers think the audience won’t be interested because of that bad reputation? Fortunately you don’t. But it’s not surprising that a lot of this music will fail the cost-benefit analysis in many music director’s minds. I’m not saying I agree with that perspective, of course, but it’s probably pretty common.

It would be great to see a wider variety of interesting works chipping away at the Three B’s and the Three M’s. Thankfully there are more and more conductors like yourself willing to lead a bit of cultural change rather than fall victim to it. After all, it’s not like performing these pieces would be a risk. If it’s done well, the audience will respond to good music. It’s more about taking control over the experience rather than letting fashion dictate forever.

As for Hindemith, “Mathis der Maler”, please.

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By: Osbert Parsley http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51691 Osbert Parsley Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:00:05 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51691 Great to hear from another person who likes Elgar! I've had a lot of success bringing around people who thought they didn't like his music with works like the two choral psalm settings - both of which are pieces I'm dying to do with the right choir. You might consider looking at Gordon Jacob's orchestral arrangement of the Organ Sonata as being a somewhat more manageably-sized Elgar orchestral piece. Normally, I bridle at conductors who program transcriptions of organ music (don't they have enough rep of their own?), but in this case I don't mind - the Sonata is really orchestral music that happens to have been composed for organ. I play the piece occasionally, but it's never really satisfying as there are no organs in my area capable of really bringing the piece off with the appropriate colours. Great to hear from another person who likes Elgar! I’ve had a lot of success bringing around people who thought they didn’t like his music with works like the two choral psalm settings – both of which are pieces I’m dying to do with the right choir.

You might consider looking at Gordon Jacob’s orchestral arrangement of the Organ Sonata as being a somewhat more manageably-sized Elgar orchestral piece. Normally, I bridle at conductors who program transcriptions of organ music (don’t they have enough rep of their own?), but in this case I don’t mind – the Sonata is really orchestral music that happens to have been composed for organ. I play the piece occasionally, but it’s never really satisfying as there are no organs in my area capable of really bringing the piece off with the appropriate colours.

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By: Kenneth Woods http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51689 Kenneth Woods Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:42:49 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51689 Hi CB I fear your question is a bigger one that mine- I was just looking for reasons we hear the cello concerto and Enigma more than everything else of his put together. I'm sure it's not quality or Englishness.... Otherwise, your list runs the gamut- Honnegger, Piston and Nielsen are all hard to play, and Piston certainly suffers for having written all those books in the eyes of administrators and players. I have a hard time doing Hanson because of his worse-than-Orff politics and his refusal to help Bartok. Delius is pretty sleep stuff- you have to be awfully relaxed to get through it. Walton should be done more, but all the major pieces- the three concertos, the symphonies and the Hindemith Variations (what a FAB piece) are all super tough, too.... We're trying, though... BTW- Walton Cello Concerto is on my "will play for beer money" list of cello concertos I am dying to play. Don't listen to received wisdom- it is an even better piece than the Viola Concerto. If you need a cheap cellist who knows and loves the piece, please call us! K Hi CB

I fear your question is a bigger one that mine- I was just looking for reasons we hear the cello concerto and Enigma more than everything else of his put together. I’m sure it’s not quality or Englishness….

Otherwise, your list runs the gamut- Honnegger, Piston and Nielsen are all hard to play, and Piston certainly suffers for having written all those books in the eyes of administrators and players. I have a hard time doing Hanson because of his worse-than-Orff politics and his refusal to help Bartok. Delius is pretty sleep stuff- you have to be awfully relaxed to get through it. Walton should be done more, but all the major pieces- the three concertos, the symphonies and the Hindemith Variations (what a FAB piece) are all super tough, too….

We’re trying, though…

BTW- Walton Cello Concerto is on my “will play for beer money” list of cello concertos I am dying to play. Don’t listen to received wisdom- it is an even better piece than the Viola Concerto. If you need a cheap cellist who knows and loves the piece, please call us!

K

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By: Robert Berger http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51684 Robert Berger Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:29:27 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51684 Bravo ! Your comments on Elgar could not have been more perceptive. I got to know the two completed symphonies from the Solti LPO recordings, which I still love, and are anything but pompous and stodgy. Falstaff deserved to be heard nore often; Andrew Davis and the NY Phil. did it some years ago. I have an excellent recording of the violin concerto on RCA with Zukerman ,Slatkin and St.Louis. I also love In other Elgar orchestral works. Have you ever done The Dream of Gerontius, a very difficult work to pull off successfully, but worth the effort.? Colin Davis and the New York Phil. did it a few years ago. No question, Elgar is one of the most misunderstood of composers. Bravo ! Your comments on Elgar could not have been more perceptive. I got to
know the two completed symphonies from the Solti LPO recordings, which I still
love, and are anything but pompous and stodgy. Falstaff deserved to be heard nore
often; Andrew Davis and the NY Phil. did it some years ago. I have an excellent
recording of the violin concerto on RCA with Zukerman ,Slatkin and St.Louis.
I also love In other Elgar orchestral works. Have you ever done The Dream of
Gerontius, a very difficult work to pull off successfully, but worth the effort.? Colin Davis and the New York Phil. did it a few years ago. No question, Elgar is
one of the most misunderstood of composers.

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By: ComposerBastard http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/comment-page-1/#comment-51680 ComposerBastard Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:57:59 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/08/22/why-americans-dont-hear-more-elgar/#comment-51680 err...maybe I disagree that it's merely a problem for Elgar. Then, maybe the technotronics is not the real reason at all... Why don't we hear more Walton or Tippett or Bridge or Perry or Delius in the US? Then again why don't we hear more Honegger, Dohnyani, Ginastera, Hanson, Nielsen, or even Piston? I don't believe its a technical issue is it with all these folks? err…maybe I disagree that it’s merely a problem for Elgar. Then, maybe the technotronics is not the real reason at all…

Why don’t we hear more Walton or Tippett or Bridge or Perry or Delius in the US?

Then again why don’t we hear more Honegger, Dohnyani, Ginastera, Hanson, Nielsen, or even Piston?

I don’t believe its a technical issue is it with all these folks?

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