Comments on: And parts is parts- building a library http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/ Music, opinion, life as a performing musician Thu, 24 May 2012 07:43:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Kenneth Woods- A View From the Podium » Performer’s Perspective- Mahler 3, a shout-out http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-85708 Kenneth Woods- A View From the Podium » Performer’s Perspective- Mahler 3, a shout-out Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:34:23 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-85708 [...] , viola. Beethoven 4 is the recording of my former teacher, David Zinman, whose Beethoven parts “look like a ——- Mahler Symphony.” Mahler 1 is from my good friend, James Judd and the Florida Philharmonic- that wonderful orchestra [...] [...] , viola. Beethoven 4 is the recording of my former teacher, David Zinman, whose Beethoven parts “look like a ——- Mahler Symphony.” Mahler 1 is from my good friend, James Judd and the Florida Philharmonic- that wonderful orchestra [...]

]]> By: Kenneth Woods http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78752 Kenneth Woods Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:46:33 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78752 KW responds via OrchLibInfo How fascinating to hear from Bernard about his personal experiences working with Beecham and Brownfoot. Thank you for weighing in. My information on Beecham came from two of my teachers who worked as his assistant at various times- I hope (and am fairly certain) I have not misquoted them, and am guessing that their experiences with Beecham simply occured in different parts of his career- before or after working with Brownfoot. They're both deceased now, so I can't follow up, I'm afriad. How lucky to have a Brownfoot as a colleague. In any case, the primary point of my post is not how a set of parts evolves (who does the bowings, who marks the parts), but why- to save rehearsal time, to focus rehearsal time and to facilitate work at a higher level. I have heard many similar comments to that about Brahms, Joachim and the "next" concertmaster, and have certainly observed the phenomenon during many years as an orchestral musician. However, there is far more to marking a set than simply marking bowings, and even bowings are marked in pencil for a reason- these things always evolve. Nonetheless, if your bowings are effective at getting the musical results you are after, make sense instrumentally and are true to the musical text, I've never seen an orchestra that wouldn't try them or that didn't respect the care and preparation that went into them. Thanks KW KW responds via OrchLibInfo

How fascinating to hear from Bernard about his personal experiences working with
Beecham and Brownfoot. Thank you for weighing in. My information on Beecham came
from two of my teachers who worked as his assistant at various times- I hope
(and am fairly certain) I have not misquoted them, and am guessing that their
experiences with Beecham simply occured in different parts of his career- before
or after working with Brownfoot. They’re both deceased now, so I can’t follow
up, I’m afriad. How lucky to have a Brownfoot as a colleague. In any case, the
primary point of my post is not how a set of parts evolves (who does the
bowings, who marks the parts), but why- to save rehearsal time, to focus
rehearsal time and to facilitate work at a higher level.

I have heard many similar comments to that about Brahms, Joachim and the “next”
concertmaster, and have certainly observed the phenomenon during many years as
an orchestral musician. However, there is far more to marking a set than simply
marking bowings, and even bowings are marked in pencil for a reason- these
things always evolve. Nonetheless, if your bowings are effective at getting the
musical results you are after, make sense instrumentally and are true to the
musical text, I’ve never seen an orchestra that wouldn’t try them or that didn’t
respect the care and preparation that went into them.

Thanks

KW

]]> By: Kenneth Woods http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78751 Kenneth Woods Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:45:50 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78751 From Bernard Keefe on Orchestra Library Info list- I worked with Beecham on several broadcasts and can assure you that the parts were marked by his librarian, Brownfoot. This admirable and tireless man was so devoted to his master and so versed in his methods and style that he could mark the parts of a new piece without troubling the great man, especially when he was dealing with marital problems. The picture of TB's wife or rather one of his wives marking parts is, shall I say, quaint. The bowings were provided by the eminent violist, Lionel Tertis. Section bowing is a relatively modern development. When the Berlin PO came to London in the 20s, critics commented on the unusual sight of all the players in a section bowing.as one. Some years ago I conducted Dukas's opera Ariane et Barbe-bleu. One or two of the parts had comments:' What a masterpiece' and so on, with little sketches of fhe conductor - Toscanini. But there was not a single bowing mark added to the printed part. Was this 1911 or for the studio performance of excerpts in the NBC period? Ken might ponder a rueful remark I heard from a composer - if the bowings of a Brahms symphony had been agreed by the composer, Joachim and the concert-master of the Vienna Philharmonic, the next concertmaster would want to change them. Bernard Keeffe in London From Bernard Keefe on Orchestra Library Info list-

I worked with Beecham on several broadcasts and can assure you that the parts were marked by his librarian, Brownfoot.
This admirable and tireless man was so devoted to his master and so versed in his methods and style that he could mark the
parts of a new piece without troubling the great man, especially when he was dealing with marital problems. The picture of TB’s wife
or rather one of his wives marking parts is, shall I say, quaint. The bowings were provided by the eminent violist, Lionel Tertis.

Section bowing is a relatively modern development. When the Berlin PO came to London in the 20s, critics commented on the unusual
sight of all the players in a section bowing.as one. Some years ago I conducted Dukas’s opera Ariane et Barbe-bleu. One or two of the parts
had comments:’ What a masterpiece’ and so on, with little sketches of fhe conductor – Toscanini. But there was not a single bowing mark added
to the printed part. Was this 1911 or for the studio performance of excerpts in the NBC period?

Ken might ponder a rueful remark I heard from a composer – if the bowings of a Brahms symphony had been agreed by the composer, Joachim and the concert-master of the Vienna Philharmonic, the next concertmaster would want to change them.

Bernard Keeffe in London

]]> By: Kenneth Woods http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78750 Kenneth Woods Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:45:02 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78750 From Clint Nieweg (emeritus librarian, Philly Orch, co-founder, MOLA) via email- Ken, May I re-post this on the OLI group list? It has extremely valuable information for librarians and conductors to read. (I agree with every word). Clint Nieweg From Clint Nieweg (emeritus librarian, Philly Orch, co-founder, MOLA) via email-

Ken,
May I re-post this on the OLI group list? It has extremely valuable information for librarians and conductors to read. (I agree with every word).
Clint Nieweg

]]> By: Zoltan http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78599 Zoltan Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:05:03 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78599 But this must be the first time the Zinman quote was used *four* times in *one* post. Just for that, I love this post! :) (can't wait to hear his Mahler 8th next year!) But this must be the first time the Zinman quote was used *four* times in *one* post.

Just for that, I love this post! :)

(can’t wait to hear his Mahler 8th next year!)

]]> By: Paul H. Muller http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78418 Paul H. Muller Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:33:26 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78418 An orderly set of parts can make a BIG difference. I have seen whole rehearsals destroyed because the brass sections had rehearsal numbers and the strings measure numbers and the woodwinds neither. So we spend 20 minutes where everyone is marking in measure numbers but of course someone isn't paying attention and then gets lost first time through the piece. I've had missing measures in my part, notes in the wrong key and illegible meter markings. The whole thing degenerates into the conductor saying things like: "OK, you see the double bar line after the piu meno mosso? We're starting two bars back from that. It should be marked 'A' in the strings or measure 142 in the brass..." I have seen electronic music stands where the parts are on a screen. That would seem to be the ultimate answer - exactly the right thing is in front of everyone - no pencils required! An orderly set of parts can make a BIG difference. I have seen whole rehearsals destroyed because the brass sections had rehearsal numbers and the strings measure numbers and the woodwinds neither. So we spend 20 minutes where everyone is marking in measure numbers but of course someone isn’t paying attention and then gets lost first time through the piece. I’ve had missing measures in my part, notes in the wrong key and illegible meter markings. The whole thing degenerates into the conductor saying things like: “OK, you see the double bar line after the piu meno mosso? We’re starting two bars back from that. It should be marked ‘A’ in the strings or measure 142 in the brass…”

I have seen electronic music stands where the parts are on a screen. That would seem to be the ultimate answer – exactly the right thing is in front of everyone – no pencils required!

]]> By: Kenneth Woods http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78409 Kenneth Woods Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:28:55 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78409 Hi Elaine, and thanks for the comment. It's always great to hear from you!. I'm agnostic about colored markings in scores- I was trained to use red and blue pencil and to highlight meter changes. I stopped using the highlighter after about a year when another teacher told me my score of L'Histoire looked like it had been decorated with lemon pie, but I still use red and blue for very complex scores where I really want to differentiate the importance of contrapuntal voices (Schoenbergs use of Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme brackets does the same thing, and I've used that as well). Bernstein never went anywhere without his "reddi-blue" pencil- same with Solti. Others, like Leinsdorf and Masur, refuse to mark anything in their scores. At the end of the day, it shouldn't be a substitute for learning the music properly, but neither should vanity prevent you marking something that would have helped you do a beter job. There's a whole post on this topic here (quite a bit of overlap with this post, unfortunately)- http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2006/10/31/score-marking/ I'm against using too many other highlighters, or just slavishing highlighting the entire solo violin part of the Sibelius fiddle concerto in purple. It seems amateurish, but if that's what is needed, then fine! There is also overlap here on the subject of bowings, which is one I should elaborate on in much more detail- http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/12/08/mailbag-bowings-and-score-study/ Thanks again for the comment BTW- Readers will note the use of the Zinman quote in those and other pieces on this blog. It is house editorial policy to use that quote as often as possible. A maestro of his unique stature can take a little ribbing, I think... :) Hi Elaine, and thanks for the comment. It’s always great to hear from you!. I’m agnostic about colored markings in scores- I was trained to use red and blue pencil and to highlight meter changes. I stopped using the highlighter after about a year when another teacher told me my score of L’Histoire looked like it had been decorated with lemon pie, but I still use red and blue for very complex scores where I really want to differentiate the importance of contrapuntal voices (Schoenbergs use of Hauptstimme and Nebenstimme brackets does the same thing, and I’ve used that as well). Bernstein never went anywhere without his “reddi-blue” pencil- same with Solti. Others, like Leinsdorf and Masur, refuse to mark anything in their scores. At the end of the day, it shouldn’t be a substitute for learning the music properly, but neither should vanity prevent you marking something that would have helped you do a beter job. There’s a whole post on this topic here (quite a bit of overlap with this post, unfortunately)-
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2006/10/31/score-marking/
I’m against using too many other highlighters, or just slavishing highlighting the entire solo violin part of the Sibelius fiddle concerto in purple. It seems amateurish, but if that’s what is needed, then fine!

There is also overlap here on the subject of bowings, which is one I should elaborate on in much more detail-
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2008/12/08/mailbag-bowings-and-score-study/

Thanks again for the comment

BTW- Readers will note the use of the Zinman quote in those and other pieces on this blog. It is house editorial policy to use that quote as often as possible. A maestro of his unique stature can take a little ribbing, I think… :)

]]> By: “They look like a fucking Mahler symphony”–Marking Parts « Eric Edberg http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78388 “They look like a fucking Mahler symphony”–Marking Parts « Eric Edberg Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:38:03 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78388 [...] All this brings me to conductor Kenneth Wood’s recent post on the value of conductors having and marking their own sets of parts.  A symphony orchestra cannot experiment in a free-for-all-way. While a great conductor manages to incorporate and empower the unique voices of (especially) the solo players in the orchestra, and can be affected by the energy and culture of the ensemble, (s)he needs a strong vision.  The stronger the musical vision, the better.  The group needs to be led, not only facilitated (although I believe great conductors both lead and facilitate, a distinction I’ll explore in anther post).  Detailed bowings, phrase markings, and other directions in the parts make the process of realizing the conductor’s vision immensely easier.  Ken writes about being told early in his conducting life that all conductors should have their own sets of parts and how overwhelming and financially impossible this seemed to him. However, over the years, I noted that, indeed, many of my senior colleagues did have their own libraries, meticulously edited and marked, which they sent around the world wherever they conducted. Of course, my former teacher, David Zinman, earned a great deal of press recognition for his early recording of the Jonathan Del Mar edition of the Beethoven symphonies. When we had the opportunity to ask him at Aspen about the use of the new edition, he informed us that he had used his own set of parts which he had prepared for this project, and that they were so marked up that not much of Del Mar’s work could still be seen. “They look like a fucking Mahler symphony,” was his typically short reply. [...] [...] All this brings me to conductor Kenneth Wood’s recent post on the value of conductors having and marking their own sets of parts.  A symphony orchestra cannot experiment in a free-for-all-way. While a great conductor manages to incorporate and empower the unique voices of (especially) the solo players in the orchestra, and can be affected by the energy and culture of the ensemble, (s)he needs a strong vision.  The stronger the musical vision, the better.  The group needs to be led, not only facilitated (although I believe great conductors both lead and facilitate, a distinction I’ll explore in anther post).  Detailed bowings, phrase markings, and other directions in the parts make the process of realizing the conductor’s vision immensely easier.  Ken writes about being told early in his conducting life that all conductors should have their own sets of parts and how overwhelming and financially impossible this seemed to him. However, over the years, I noted that, indeed, many of my senior colleagues did have their own libraries, meticulously edited and marked, which they sent around the world wherever they conducted. Of course, my former teacher, David Zinman, earned a great deal of press recognition for his early recording of the Jonathan Del Mar edition of the Beethoven symphonies. When we had the opportunity to ask him at Aspen about the use of the new edition, he informed us that he had used his own set of parts which he had prepared for this project, and that they were so marked up that not much of Del Mar’s work could still be seen. “They look like a fucking Mahler symphony,” was his typically short reply. [...]

]]> By: Elaine Fine http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/comment-page-1/#comment-78386 Elaine Fine Tue, 11 Aug 2009 13:51:50 +0000 http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/08/11/and-parts-is-parts-building-a-library/#comment-78386 Thank goodness for your integrity. There is nothing I enjoy more, orchestral-playing-wise, than a conductor who knows what is in the musicians' parts, and can use rehearsal time to reinforce those markings rather than to invent them. It really saves time, both in rehearsal and over the long run. I'm wondering how you feel about using colors in scores. I have seen some academic conductors use scores with all kinds of bright colors to indicate what is happening where, but, never really having the in-the-flesh chance to see a professional conductor's score (and so often being in the orchestra, where it is out of place to ask), I'm taking this opportunity to do so. Thank goodness for your integrity. There is nothing I enjoy more, orchestral-playing-wise, than a conductor who knows what is in the musicians’ parts, and can use rehearsal time to reinforce those markings rather than to invent them. It really saves time, both in rehearsal and over the long run.

I’m wondering how you feel about using colors in scores. I have seen some academic conductors use scores with all kinds of bright colors to indicate what is happening where, but, never really having the in-the-flesh chance to see a professional conductor’s score (and so often being in the orchestra, where it is out of place to ask), I’m taking this opportunity to do so.

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