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	<title>Comments on: Stop the fingerings!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/</link>
	<description>Music, opinion, life as a performing musician</description>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Woods</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82125</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82125</guid>
		<description>Hi Patti

Thanks for the comment. That sounds like a good system- the most important thing is not to get in your stand partner&#039;s way with your markings. Thanks for reading!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Patti</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. That sounds like a good system- the most important thing is not to get in your stand partner&#8217;s way with your markings. Thanks for reading!</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Woods</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82124</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82124</guid>
		<description>Hi Iain

There&#039;s an old post here on the general subject of score marking
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2006/10/31/score-marking/ which somehow got picked up by Gramophone Magazine. As you can see, I&#039;m a political independent on score marking- I do make quite a few analytical notes as I go along, and I often mark entrances because the layout on every page can be different. On one page the top line is flute, but the next page it might be oboe and another 2nd horn. Better safe that sorry, but I do keep clean copies of most standard rep because it is good to go back without preconceptions and think about a piece afresh.

K</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Iain</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an old post here on the general subject of score marking<br />
<a href="http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2006/10/31/score-marking/" rel="nofollow">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2006/10/31/score-marking/</a> which somehow got picked up by Gramophone Magazine. As you can see, I&#8217;m a political independent on score marking- I do make quite a few analytical notes as I go along, and I often mark entrances because the layout on every page can be different. On one page the top line is flute, but the next page it might be oboe and another 2nd horn. Better safe that sorry, but I do keep clean copies of most standard rep because it is good to go back without preconceptions and think about a piece afresh.</p>
<p>K</p>
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		<title>By: Patti</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82118</link>
		<dc:creator>Patti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82118</guid>
		<description>As you say, fingerings are an intensely personal thing. For myself, as an orchestral player (viola) primarily, I need to find a way to get through the 90 minutes of difficult music I&#039;m playing this week, which will be superseded by another 90 minutes next week, and so on. I write as little as possible into the music, but certain passages demand that I make a decision about which way I&#039;m going to play it this week, though that may change the next time round. And the convention in every orchestra I&#039;ve ever played in is that the outside player&#039;s fingerings go above the notes and the inside player&#039;s go below. Maybe it&#039;s a viola thing, but nobody seems to have a problem with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you say, fingerings are an intensely personal thing. For myself, as an orchestral player (viola) primarily, I need to find a way to get through the 90 minutes of difficult music I&#8217;m playing this week, which will be superseded by another 90 minutes next week, and so on. I write as little as possible into the music, but certain passages demand that I make a decision about which way I&#8217;m going to play it this week, though that may change the next time round. And the convention in every orchestra I&#8217;ve ever played in is that the outside player&#8217;s fingerings go above the notes and the inside player&#8217;s go below. Maybe it&#8217;s a viola thing, but nobody seems to have a problem with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Woods- A View From the Podium &#187; Teach them to finger themselves</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82053</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Woods- A View From the Podium &#187; Teach them to finger themselves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82053</guid>
		<description>[...] been delighted to see how many responses I’ve had to my last post on fingerings and bowings. By a complete coincidence, I found this morning I have another comrade in arms, Alban Gerhardt, who [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been delighted to see how many responses I’ve had to my last post on fingerings and bowings. By a complete coincidence, I found this morning I have another comrade in arms, Alban Gerhardt, who [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82034</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82034</guid>
		<description>Just out of interest (and this has probably been discussed on your blog at some point already) are your conducting scores clean as well? I suppose following through this discussion would lead to the idea that if you mark things in your score it distracts you from other possibilities eg. marking an entry as important means you don&#039;t consider what else is going on. Personally I&#039;m a fan of trying to keep scores as clean as possible, I&#039;ve never been able to understand why people want to mark things up in multiple colours because if you study well enough you shouldn&#039;t need reminders. Everyone is different though and I know that it helps a lot of people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just out of interest (and this has probably been discussed on your blog at some point already) are your conducting scores clean as well? I suppose following through this discussion would lead to the idea that if you mark things in your score it distracts you from other possibilities eg. marking an entry as important means you don&#8217;t consider what else is going on. Personally I&#8217;m a fan of trying to keep scores as clean as possible, I&#8217;ve never been able to understand why people want to mark things up in multiple colours because if you study well enough you shouldn&#8217;t need reminders. Everyone is different though and I know that it helps a lot of people.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleen</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82027</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82027</guid>
		<description>Ken, you would really get along with my Tim! I have slowly migrated towards your school, but my tendency towards compliance really stunted that progression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, you would really get along with my Tim! I have slowly migrated towards your school, but my tendency towards compliance really stunted that progression.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Woods</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82025</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82025</guid>
		<description>On one hand, I&#039;m excited to find I share preferences with Heifitz and Gould, because, well, they were gods.

On the other hand, I&#039;m concerned, because, well, they were both batshit crazy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On one hand, I&#8217;m excited to find I share preferences with Heifitz and Gould, because, well, they were gods.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I&#8217;m concerned, because, well, they were both batshit crazy</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Simon</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-82011</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-82011</guid>
		<description>Did Gould ever look at the editions of Renaissance motets from back in his childhood days? Fingerings are nothing compared to all the extraneous dynamics, articulation marks, tempo changes and other claptrap which routinely disfigured early music editions a half-century ago. Occasionally those editions turn up in music libraries, and those markings are much harder to ignore than fingerings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Gould ever look at the editions of Renaissance motets from back in his childhood days? Fingerings are nothing compared to all the extraneous dynamics, articulation marks, tempo changes and other claptrap which routinely disfigured early music editions a half-century ago. Occasionally those editions turn up in music libraries, and those markings are much harder to ignore than fingerings.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Monroe</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81996</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81996</guid>
		<description>

Here&#039;s part of what Glenn Gould has to say about fingerings:

&quot;When I was a child, I was profoundly mystified by the fact that most of the editions, even the best ones, in circulation at that time – Bischoff’s Bach, say or Schnabel’s Beethoven – contained, among other indulgences, fingerings. I would look at those fingerings, even try them out on occasion, and find that they rarely corresponded to what I had been doing or wanted to do. And I was always amazed that people were actually paid to sit there and add extraneous, perhaps erroneous (and in many cases mischievous) data to a fugue or a sonata.

Well, I still am, I can’t really get over it. For me, a fingering is something which springs spontaneously to mind when one looks at a score, and is altered, if at all, when a shift of emphasis alters the way of looking at the score.”

(from David Dubal’s “Reflections from the Keyboard,” p.180)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s part of what Glenn Gould has to say about fingerings:</p>
<p>&#8220;When I was a child, I was profoundly mystified by the fact that most of the editions, even the best ones, in circulation at that time – Bischoff’s Bach, say or Schnabel’s Beethoven – contained, among other indulgences, fingerings. I would look at those fingerings, even try them out on occasion, and find that they rarely corresponded to what I had been doing or wanted to do. And I was always amazed that people were actually paid to sit there and add extraneous, perhaps erroneous (and in many cases mischievous) data to a fugue or a sonata.</p>
<p>Well, I still am, I can’t really get over it. For me, a fingering is something which springs spontaneously to mind when one looks at a score, and is altered, if at all, when a shift of emphasis alters the way of looking at the score.”</p>
<p>(from David Dubal’s “Reflections from the Keyboard,” p.180)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Monroe</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81984</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81984</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an interview with Glenn Gould in David Dubal&#039;s &quot;Reflections from the Keyboard&quot; where Gould describes much the same bewilderment about published fingerings. He goes on to say he once looked through all his early scores and found he&#039;d never written in any fingerings. Of course, he&#039;s Glenn Gould. I don&#039;t have the book nearby to get the complete quotes, but you can see samples here: http://tr.im/gouldfinger</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s an interview with Glenn Gould in David Dubal&#8217;s &#8220;Reflections from the Keyboard&#8221; where Gould describes much the same bewilderment about published fingerings. He goes on to say he once looked through all his early scores and found he&#8217;d never written in any fingerings. Of course, he&#8217;s Glenn Gould. I don&#8217;t have the book nearby to get the complete quotes, but you can see samples here: <a href="http://tr.im/gouldfinger" rel="nofollow">http://tr.im/gouldfinger</a></p>
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		<title>By: S Mordecai</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81971</link>
		<dc:creator>S Mordecai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81971</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is a persistent problem in percussion music as well.  Invariably college students are given some 4th-generation photocopy of the part for practicing or auditioning purposes and stickings are scrawled in chicken-scratch all over the thing.  It must be a nightmare for left-handed people.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is a persistent problem in percussion music as well.  Invariably college students are given some 4th-generation photocopy of the part for practicing or auditioning purposes and stickings are scrawled in chicken-scratch all over the thing.  It must be a nightmare for left-handed people.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81958</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81958</guid>
		<description>&quot;I need to have fingerings in certain wicked parts because I won&#039;t remember them (such as the repeated dotted rhythms in 18th position in Shostakovich 5 1st movement), but I try to keep it minimal. We once had a conductor candidate who gave us personal Sheherezade parts with his nonsensical bowings written in red ink. He was not hired.

I had a roommate in my Mad years who returned a sonata to the Mills Music Library, with his teacher&#039;s fingerings and bowings written all over it, unerased, because &quot;they were right&quot;. LooooooooooL. Good times.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I need to have fingerings in certain wicked parts because I won&#8217;t remember them (such as the repeated dotted rhythms in 18th position in Shostakovich 5 1st movement), but I try to keep it minimal. We once had a conductor candidate who gave us personal Sheherezade parts with his nonsensical bowings written in red ink. He was not hired.</p>
<p>I had a roommate in my Mad years who returned a sonata to the Mills Music Library, with his teacher&#8217;s fingerings and bowings written all over it, unerased, because &#8220;they were right&#8221;. LooooooooooL. Good times.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81956</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81956</guid>
		<description>&quot;The last time I had size 42 trousers I was in clown college...and they still fitted perfectly!!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The last time I had size 42 trousers I was in clown college&#8230;and they still fitted perfectly!!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Woods</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81955</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81955</guid>
		<description>Hi Allen

I suppose it depends on the cellist. If I&#039;m preparing a piece properly, it&#039;s certainly no problem. If I&#039;m sightreading at some speed, I&#039;m still likely be okay, but every once in a while, the sheer absurdity of some spurious marking will be enough to distract me. More worrying is the impact on young players, who don&#039;t understand the difference between the information in their part that comes from the composer and that which comes from the editor. Better to teach them to problem solve than to spoon feed them possibly dubious solutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Allen</p>
<p>I suppose it depends on the cellist. If I&#8217;m preparing a piece properly, it&#8217;s certainly no problem. If I&#8217;m sightreading at some speed, I&#8217;m still likely be okay, but every once in a while, the sheer absurdity of some spurious marking will be enough to distract me. More worrying is the impact on young players, who don&#8217;t understand the difference between the information in their part that comes from the composer and that which comes from the editor. Better to teach them to problem solve than to spoon feed them possibly dubious solutions.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Simon</title>
		<link>http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2009/11/15/stop-the-fingerings/comment-page-1/#comment-81953</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/?p=1066#comment-81953</guid>
		<description>Laurent&#039;s right that this applies to piano scores as well. But when I play piano I can easily tune them out and play with my own fingerings, just looking at the notes. Is that so hard for cellists?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurent&#8217;s right that this applies to piano scores as well. But when I play piano I can easily tune them out and play with my own fingerings, just looking at the notes. Is that so hard for cellists?</p>
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